If you're shocked by what is happening in the Middle East, stand back and take a look at the larger problem: the human predilection for absolute certainty.
Frank, you are a good man with a good heart and keen mind. I agree with much of what you say. I don’t agree that all “religious” claims are myth and that atheism or agnosticism are somehow more enlightened. I’ve seen how intolerant atheists can be and how they can resent or even try to convert people of faith. I don’t think prayer and belief in God are just a psychological need without objective basis. I left the Christian Right, ie white conservative American evangelicals, after decades with them. They have become a travesty in their bigotry and undiscerning and destructive alignment with people like Trump. They are doing much damage. But I still believe in and follow Christ and believe there’s much good in the Bible, and that the true God is love and light, the One who is most enlightened. Having said that, which I know you disagree with, I greatly appreciate your emphasis on humility, respecting and honoring all people in their common humanity, science and seeking truth, enlightened ideas that advance humanity whatever the source of those ideas, caring for our planet, and respecting all peoples in their rights to live in peace and security. Like you, I reject nationalistic religious claims that “this land belongs to us and we are to dominate or eliminate others.” Religion has done enormous harm in human history, including much which claims to be Christian. But much good has also been done when love and kindness and grace are central vs bigotry and fear and seeking power/control. You present thought-provoking comments. Thank you. May you and your family experience continued love and may we all be led in truth and goodness.
Even for believers in the book (which I am, if not in a totally scientific way) there's the dimension of TIMING. What if all this Jewish modern Israel Zionist stuff is jumping the gun on God? Christians should, especially, understand that. I'd expect a resurgence of benevolently minded gospel that sells itself to usher in such a time.
The basic human problem is sin, the lack of the kind of love that comes from the wisdom of God. I would daresay that you are, in fact, still Christian but not in the right wing church dogmatic way any more.
Whose comment was it that, " Men never do vicious misdeeds to each other more thoroughly than when they are doing it for their religion "? ( or something like that.
Frank, thank you for your wonderful sensitivity. Here is a thought. I think one thing that will give us a direction intellectually is to embrace the thing your father rejected, the "methodology of synthesis." The possibility of synthesis just comes from the fact that we can learn. We can learn to see value in others' perspectives and needs.
The church lost the claimed Reason for its existence (if it ever had it in the first place) centuries ago. It has zero relation to the truth of Love any more and if it ever has, as an organization or a convergence of like-minded people, in my lifetime, I never knew it.
Like you I am in recovery from a childhood in churches, both evangelical and RC. Like any harmful addiction---even one not chosen but inflicted by others (I knew a nurse once who picked a 14 year old prostitute up out of the ED bay where she'd been dumped, and when she couldn't get a vein, she asked the girl over and over, "Where's your party vein?! Where's your party vein?! and the girl said, "I don't do this to myself!")—you have to be carefully taught and it takes dedication and a lifetime commitment to recover without bitterness.
Also like you, I've come to understand that the only Holy thing is Love and therefore reject 100% the brutal terrorist sold to the people by the churches as “god.” Full disclosure: There are countless people who somehow find the Spirit of Love and are members of churches. When I was in the hospital recently, a very kind Eucharistic minister offered me communion---which I declined, but then I hear Mick singing, "Eat the bread, drink the wine" and I see that I can have communion if I want it without betraying the Spirit of Love.
A brutal god is necessary for the emperor. Constantine took care of that once and for all. When the council at Nicene took too long to decide what texts people should be given, he went down there personally to tell them to get off their asses because he had political goals that required the enforcement of those texts. So, knowing human nature, I expect that if the Emperor Himself tells you to finish the job, you do it in a manner that will please him in case you lose your head otherwise.
Hence we have the theocracy movement today. There appears to be a subspecies of homo sapiens that is incapable of tolerating truth and must be led—by anyone who struts onto the stage while the rest of us use the brains we were granted to do the good we can do in spite of the others.
To claim the bible as inerrant or dogma as the sole truth is insanity. It is valuable as a book of myth that conveys, in the old way of storytelling, valuable lessons for life---but if some little boy in Sunday school hears the story of Abraham, he's going to keep one eye on his own father after that---if the old boy goes off the rails one day and hears "god" telling him to cut the boy's throat, it's clear that he's got too much invested in "god" to disobey “him.”
But the NT offers the lessons and philosophy of a good person called Jesus who gives priceless advice on how to live in Love and harmony---but the church doesn't believe any of that, let alone practice it. The church believes the part that says that we're each born evil and we must either do what they say or go to hell, and Jesus was nice and all that, but if you want to avoid eternal torture, you'd better do what they say. (Which usually involves giving them a lot of money which can be used, as we recently learned, to bribe Jesus to get his ass in gear and get the "rapture" moving!)
My brother suffered kidney failure for several years before his death at 43 and was on frequent dialysis. Therefore, he was thin and his veins were knotted. He wore his hair long because he always knew he would donate it for wigs for cancer patients when he died–he would give whatever he was able to give. He didn’t go to any church. He had the Spirit of Love. Because of his appearance, some people judged him an addict and held him in contempt without ever knowing that he was the gentlest, most loving, and selfless person in the room. He played blues guitar, and I always think of this song when I think of him:
Religion and politics have been strange bedfellows since the beginning of recorded history. One concept I find common in most religions is their claim to an exclusive connection to God. Every religion has its own sacred text that validates its beliefs and claims to be the only means to know God. Religious beliefs have been continuously used to perpetuate hate, discrimination, discord, wars, and genocide among and between people groups since the beginning of time!
I learned from my studies of Christian history that a long list of atrocities against humankind has been perpetrated in the name of Christianity. However, not one of these actions reflects the love and humility of Jesus Christ. The four largest religious groups by world population are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. How ironic that Judaism is not included at the top of this list even though the Hebrew Bible records that God told Abram in Gen.13:15 for all the land which you see I will give to you and to your descendants forever. 16 I will make your descendants [as numerous] as the dust of the earth, so that if a man could count the [grains of] dust of the earth, then your descendants could also be counted.
Many theologians use this passage to insist upon support for the nation of Israel as God’s chosen descendants of Abraham. According to the Hebrew Bible, this promise was made to Abram before God changed his name to Abraham, and decades before he fathered his first son. We also know that Abraham fathered many other sons besides Isaac who became the progenitor of the Israelites. However, both Islam and Christianity also trace their identity to Abraham. Therefore, I am inclined to conclude both Christians and Islams and every other people group are included in the number of descendants that God referred to in this Hebrew passage.
Frank, you are a good man with a good heart and keen mind. I agree with much of what you say. I don’t agree that all “religious” claims are myth and that atheism or agnosticism are somehow more enlightened. I’ve seen how intolerant atheists can be and how they can resent or even try to convert people of faith. I don’t think prayer and belief in God are just a psychological need without objective basis. I left the Christian Right, ie white conservative American evangelicals, after decades with them. They have become a travesty in their bigotry and undiscerning and destructive alignment with people like Trump. They are doing much damage. But I still believe in and follow Christ and believe there’s much good in the Bible, and that the true God is love and light, the One who is most enlightened. Having said that, which I know you disagree with, I greatly appreciate your emphasis on humility, respecting and honoring all people in their common humanity, science and seeking truth, enlightened ideas that advance humanity whatever the source of those ideas, caring for our planet, and respecting all peoples in their rights to live in peace and security. Like you, I reject nationalistic religious claims that “this land belongs to us and we are to dominate or eliminate others.” Religion has done enormous harm in human history, including much which claims to be Christian. But much good has also been done when love and kindness and grace are central vs bigotry and fear and seeking power/control. You present thought-provoking comments. Thank you. May you and your family experience continued love and may we all be led in truth and goodness.
Thank you for this extremely thought-provoking talk. I great appreciated it.
Incredible, Frank
Even for believers in the book (which I am, if not in a totally scientific way) there's the dimension of TIMING. What if all this Jewish modern Israel Zionist stuff is jumping the gun on God? Christians should, especially, understand that. I'd expect a resurgence of benevolently minded gospel that sells itself to usher in such a time.
The basic human problem is sin, the lack of the kind of love that comes from the wisdom of God. I would daresay that you are, in fact, still Christian but not in the right wing church dogmatic way any more.
Whose comment was it that, " Men never do vicious misdeeds to each other more thoroughly than when they are doing it for their religion "? ( or something like that.
Frank, thank you for your wonderful sensitivity. Here is a thought. I think one thing that will give us a direction intellectually is to embrace the thing your father rejected, the "methodology of synthesis." The possibility of synthesis just comes from the fact that we can learn. We can learn to see value in others' perspectives and needs.
The church lost the claimed Reason for its existence (if it ever had it in the first place) centuries ago. It has zero relation to the truth of Love any more and if it ever has, as an organization or a convergence of like-minded people, in my lifetime, I never knew it.
Like you I am in recovery from a childhood in churches, both evangelical and RC. Like any harmful addiction---even one not chosen but inflicted by others (I knew a nurse once who picked a 14 year old prostitute up out of the ED bay where she'd been dumped, and when she couldn't get a vein, she asked the girl over and over, "Where's your party vein?! Where's your party vein?! and the girl said, "I don't do this to myself!")—you have to be carefully taught and it takes dedication and a lifetime commitment to recover without bitterness.
Also like you, I've come to understand that the only Holy thing is Love and therefore reject 100% the brutal terrorist sold to the people by the churches as “god.” Full disclosure: There are countless people who somehow find the Spirit of Love and are members of churches. When I was in the hospital recently, a very kind Eucharistic minister offered me communion---which I declined, but then I hear Mick singing, "Eat the bread, drink the wine" and I see that I can have communion if I want it without betraying the Spirit of Love.
A brutal god is necessary for the emperor. Constantine took care of that once and for all. When the council at Nicene took too long to decide what texts people should be given, he went down there personally to tell them to get off their asses because he had political goals that required the enforcement of those texts. So, knowing human nature, I expect that if the Emperor Himself tells you to finish the job, you do it in a manner that will please him in case you lose your head otherwise.
Hence we have the theocracy movement today. There appears to be a subspecies of homo sapiens that is incapable of tolerating truth and must be led—by anyone who struts onto the stage while the rest of us use the brains we were granted to do the good we can do in spite of the others.
To claim the bible as inerrant or dogma as the sole truth is insanity. It is valuable as a book of myth that conveys, in the old way of storytelling, valuable lessons for life---but if some little boy in Sunday school hears the story of Abraham, he's going to keep one eye on his own father after that---if the old boy goes off the rails one day and hears "god" telling him to cut the boy's throat, it's clear that he's got too much invested in "god" to disobey “him.”
But the NT offers the lessons and philosophy of a good person called Jesus who gives priceless advice on how to live in Love and harmony---but the church doesn't believe any of that, let alone practice it. The church believes the part that says that we're each born evil and we must either do what they say or go to hell, and Jesus was nice and all that, but if you want to avoid eternal torture, you'd better do what they say. (Which usually involves giving them a lot of money which can be used, as we recently learned, to bribe Jesus to get his ass in gear and get the "rapture" moving!)
My brother suffered kidney failure for several years before his death at 43 and was on frequent dialysis. Therefore, he was thin and his veins were knotted. He wore his hair long because he always knew he would donate it for wigs for cancer patients when he died–he would give whatever he was able to give. He didn’t go to any church. He had the Spirit of Love. Because of his appearance, some people judged him an addict and held him in contempt without ever knowing that he was the gentlest, most loving, and selfless person in the room. He played blues guitar, and I always think of this song when I think of him:
https://youtu.be/36J1MUShWBQ?t=234
Frank - thank you☮️
"Lust for certitude" is not the mind and heart of Christ.
Religion and politics have been strange bedfellows since the beginning of recorded history. One concept I find common in most religions is their claim to an exclusive connection to God. Every religion has its own sacred text that validates its beliefs and claims to be the only means to know God. Religious beliefs have been continuously used to perpetuate hate, discrimination, discord, wars, and genocide among and between people groups since the beginning of time!
I learned from my studies of Christian history that a long list of atrocities against humankind has been perpetrated in the name of Christianity. However, not one of these actions reflects the love and humility of Jesus Christ. The four largest religious groups by world population are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. How ironic that Judaism is not included at the top of this list even though the Hebrew Bible records that God told Abram in Gen.13:15 for all the land which you see I will give to you and to your descendants forever. 16 I will make your descendants [as numerous] as the dust of the earth, so that if a man could count the [grains of] dust of the earth, then your descendants could also be counted.
Many theologians use this passage to insist upon support for the nation of Israel as God’s chosen descendants of Abraham. According to the Hebrew Bible, this promise was made to Abram before God changed his name to Abraham, and decades before he fathered his first son. We also know that Abraham fathered many other sons besides Isaac who became the progenitor of the Israelites. However, both Islam and Christianity also trace their identity to Abraham. Therefore, I am inclined to conclude both Christians and Islams and every other people group are included in the number of descendants that God referred to in this Hebrew passage.