We are at a crossroads now, where all of the scientific theories about climate change are being proven correct. This July is the hottest month that has ever been experienced on this planet.
I believe God provides science and the arts to reveal Himself to us. Every medical or scientific discovery we learn of reveals undeniable evidence of His existence. I believe God gave the arts (music, dance, paintings, poetry, etc.) for us to tangibly experience His love. Every time I listen to my favorite vocalists, view beautiful artwork, or read the poetry of Maya Angelou I experience such joy and pleasure in my mind, body, and soul. Listening to certain songs causes me to smile and reflect on my fondest memories. That is why one music genre is known as “soul music”.
Frank, as a prolific writer and artist, do you realize that God expresses His love through your art and writings? I appreciate what you shared about how your dad “liked art better than theology and people better than rules” in your book “Crazy for God”. I believe religion is rooted in man’s lust and desire to define a god whose sole aim is to control and intimidate humankind with an unrealistic set of laws and rules which I call “sin laws”. Religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.) has no value in my life because Satan is the god of religion. I do believe that the one true and living God is revealed through my relationship with His son, Jesus Christ. I love how the Message translation of 2 Peter 1:3-4 describes life with Jesus:
3-4 Everything that goes into a life of pleasing God has been miraculously given to us by getting to know, personally and intimately, the One who invited us to God. The best invitation we ever received! We were also given absolutely terrific promises to pass on to you—your tickets to participation in the life of God after you turned your back on a world corrupted by lust.
Carolyn, I agree. One of the really moving things about "Crazy for God" is where he talks about how much better his parents were than the Religious Right movement they helped to create. I think some of this is esthetic. They loved art, and art forces us to engage with the real world in some ways. Francis Schaeffer's writings are so much more passionate than the writings of another "presuppositionalist," Cornelius Van Til. Van Til was a real "cold fish," as someone said once. He finds it pretty easy to dismiss the modern world. Schaeffer was passionately engaged with it.
Please explain a "relationship with His son, Jesus Christ." This was taught to me as the *only* way to "be saved," i.e., to escape the eternal torment of hell. I agree heartily with the teachings attributed to Jesus and fully understand that following them would create the lost Eden, but I don't agree at all that a "loving" god would set up a torment like hell for his "children." I don't believe a loving god would have "his son" tortured and killed in order that he could stand the sight of the beings he called his "children."
I think you're right that a LOVING god would have gifted his children with the beauty of art and music and with the talents to produce such arts. But there is a serious disconnect between torture to "save" and love and beauty.
If I have any relationship with Jesus, it's very simple: The teachings attributed to him actually *could* save the world---but I cannot accept the terror of the thing called "God" in the juidaic religions who is a being of cruelty and pain who has dictated slavery and hatred of women and cruelty to children according to the book worshiped by most of his followers.
I had this stuff shoved down my throat from birth and it's taken years and lots of therapy money to shed the horror of it, and the "christians" of the world do absolutely NOTHING to encourage me to look any further into it.
I truly understand your struggle. I also find it hard to reconcile the anger and cruelty attributed to the God of the Hebrew Bible with the lovingkindness, grace, and mercy of Jesus in the New Testament. I do not understand why so many Christians believe that threatening others that they are doomed for hell if they do not believe in God would convince anyone that God loves them. That is not a message of love! Too many have been traumatized by what they heard preached/taught in church. Authentic Christian Life Ministry was established to help people like you and others overcome church trauma. I invite you to visit our website (https://authentic-christianity.life/) to learn how to develop your relationship with Jesus and engage in discussions that will affirm your faith.
Frank, I’ve written before with positive response to your various commentaries and analyses. You share some very good insights. However, your two latest “It Has to Be Said” recordings suggest you’re going on a rampage of hatred and anger against anything and anyone who supports faith in God or Christ or the Bible. I’m also a refugee from the American Christian Right subculture, in which I spent decades of my life. I admit that I hate what I’ve discovered about this corrupted, increasingly far-right, politicized, white Christian nationalist movement. Yet, I’ve not thrown out the baby with the bath water by rejecting God, Christ, or anything connected to the Bible as you appear to have done. And you seem to have gone further by condemning Christian belief altogether and lumping into one contemptible pile any faith in God or anyone who may believe in Christ or the Bible.
With all due respect, your claims that completely discount Christ and the Biblical accounts as myths are flawed. I seek truth like you. I believe in good science like you. And there’s much evidence for the historical, textual, archaeological, and other objective evidence for Christ.
As for climate change, I agree that many of the Christian Right deny it. But I know those who don’t, and I’m one of them who agrees strongly with climate science. A senior climate scientist for the Nature Conservancy is a Christian whose husband is an evangelical pastor. She points out that the denial of human-caused climate change is notable not among Christians outside the U.S. but among conservative Christians in the U.S., and it’s driven largely by politics.
Many of the greatest discoveries in science over the centuries came from the work of Bible-believing Christian scientists.
I’m sorry for the extremism and anti-science nature of your youth and father. You’re right to speak against it. I speak out against the American Christian Right to which I once belonged. But your vitriol and claims seem to have become like a religion to you, an atheistic religion full of hatred and bitterness.
Why did you recently interview a Christian whose book and writings you praised (even if you don’t agree with his beliefs) if you have such contempt for Christian beliefs of any kind?
Your latest “It Has to Be Said” messages (posted this last week of July 2023) are filled with extreme intolerance and a dogmatic hatred that is destructive like the far-right, fundamentalist Christians you condemn.
I appreciate much of what you have shared in past weeks but I believe you are really undercutting the credibility and helpfulness of your analysis with such atheistic hatred.
The eye of the beholder. I don't see any hatred whatsoever in this content---we absolutely DO NOT need the prophets to show us the deadly folly that their religions have instilled in the world. We see too easily exactly what that has wrought---DEATH. If you need Jesus, there's nothing in Frank Shaeffer's words that tells you not to satisfy that need. But to judge everyone who doesn't have your point of view as athestic haters is hardly a quality of Jesus'.
Thank you, Olive! I'm sure many will find Frank's...frankness...to be offensive. However, that being said, the deepest, most damaging wounds hurt the most, and as with wounds, the antiseptic cleanser that, without which there could be no healing, when applied caringly, cannot be diluted at all! The world needs Frank's observations like never before. Many, if not most, may not be willing to listen, but those who ARE listening...those who both hear and see...will find a new connection, a vital life-line that lets them know that they are not alone, nor are they the only ones who are listening! We are on the cuff of a new awakening...an awakening for the benefit of humanity, in all its diverseness and uniqueness! Anyway, just thankful that I'm not alone!
After listening to this podcast, I decided to reread Frank's father's book "Pollution and the Death of Man: the Christian View of Ecology"(1970). It's quite an interesting book. I think Frank said that his father "opposed science" in the podcast. That doesn't seem true. In fact, I would say it's hard to know what "opposing science" would even mean. Science has such high prestige in the present world that it would be almost impossible to oppose it. The proponents of almost all viewpoints try to lay claim to the achievements of science in some way. Every religion, for example, claims to be the "only scientific religion" at some point.
In a way, this podcast does the same thing Frank's father did, but from the opposite direction. Frank's father said the only way to a good environmentalism is through Christian "presuppositions." Frank is saying the only way is through "scientific" presuppositions. But is science really a teaching that we have to decide to accept or reject? I don't think so. I think it's the endeavor of those who love to investigate things. They don't all agree.
Addition: I think maybe I need to flesh out a little more what I'm saying. In his book, Frank's father said that Christians have dominion over nature but had failed to use it properly. We are supposed to use it in a compassionate and ethical way. And I'm assuming that's what he wanted the Religious Right to push for. I'm assuming that in another issue, he would've said that women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions, but the children they give birth to should be guaranteed the support they need. So why didn't this happen? I think because the Religious Right made an alliance with the Republican Party. At that point, the party's priorities became its priorities, too. But I believe there is another side to this. Another problem is that the Christian America that his father envisioned was not to be. The American people didn't embrace it. Could they have done so? I doubt it, because its intellectual foundations were not very strong. For example, it has to deal with science in an authoritarian way. It says "science will eventually agree with the teachings of our scriptures." But that's not the way science functions. It isn't set up to arrive at particular conclusions about things.
I remember in one of Francis Schaeffer's books he mentioned that some scholar believed the world was only 6,000 years old. That surprised me a little, because generally he seemed pretty deferential to the ideas of scientists. But his priority was that they eventually have to agree with the Bible.
Because Americans didn't adopt the evangelical agenda, eventually some people started to think, "we have to force Americans to accept our priorities." This is something that I think Schaeffer himself would've found strange and disturbing. He thought the goodness of Christianity should be able to speak for itself. For example, there was his short book called "The Mark of The Christian." The world will want to adopt Christianity because Christians are so loving.
With all due respect, your claims that completely discount Christ and the Biblical accounts as myths are flawed. I seek truth like you. I believe in good science like you. And there’s much evidence for the historical, textual, archaeological, and other objective evidence for Christ.
Hi, SPW. Thanks for asking. There are many sources for the truth to which I’m referring. They comprise an extensive field of research, study, and analysis known as Christian apologetics. You can Google for a variety of resources under “Christian apologetics.” I am listing below a small number of those resources, both people and books. The book titles are in quotes. These authors have written many more books than I’ve listed.
This group of 11 people delve into science and the Bible, textual evidence, archaeological evidence, legal analysis, investigative journalism, historical and literary resources, linguistics, and more. This small number of people include some former atheists or skeptics, including people who intended to disprove the Bible and Christianity (for example the Resurrection of Christ), but they were converted to Christ by the weight of objective evidence they discovered.
These authors represent a range of highly educated people, some of whom have advanced degrees from very highly respected universities, like Oxford, Cambridge, Princeton, and others. Indeed, some have been professors at these institutions.
There are many more resources and authors that could be cited. Some of those additional sources can be found in the writings of this list of people. My small list below includes some of those whose writings I’ve read or whom I’ve read about over the years:
- [ ] Josh McDowell, “More than a Carpenter,” former skeptic who set out to disprove Christianity, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” books
- [ ] Gregory Boyd, former atheist; a theologian, professor, pastor, and prolific writer, “Letters from a Skeptic”
- [ ] F.F. Bruce, Scottish biblical scholar and professor, “The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?”
- [ ] Robert Dick Wilson, American linguist and Old Testament scholar
- [ ] Frank Morison, lawyer, “Who Moved the Stone?”
- [ ] Lee Stroebel, atheist turned Christian, formerly an award-winning investigative journalist and legal editor of the Chicago Tribune; writer
- [ ] C. S. Lewis, British scholar, writer, and professor; former atheist
- [ ] Malcolm Muggeridge, British intellectual and writer
- [ ] Scientists, eg A. E. Wildersmith, Henry Morris (eg, “Men of Science, Men of God”), Hugh Ross (Canadian astrophysicist who started the non-profit organization called “Reasons to Believe”)
As a former evangelical charismatic Christian, and currently as a very happy gay man with a partner of over 23 years, I never thought that I would find someone, a leader, whom I had highly respected from my church past. Your thoughts and opinions are so aligned with what I see happening in the world that I am absolutely amazed! Thank you for being Frank!
I believe God provides science and the arts to reveal Himself to us. Every medical or scientific discovery we learn of reveals undeniable evidence of His existence. I believe God gave the arts (music, dance, paintings, poetry, etc.) for us to tangibly experience His love. Every time I listen to my favorite vocalists, view beautiful artwork, or read the poetry of Maya Angelou I experience such joy and pleasure in my mind, body, and soul. Listening to certain songs causes me to smile and reflect on my fondest memories. That is why one music genre is known as “soul music”.
Frank, as a prolific writer and artist, do you realize that God expresses His love through your art and writings? I appreciate what you shared about how your dad “liked art better than theology and people better than rules” in your book “Crazy for God”. I believe religion is rooted in man’s lust and desire to define a god whose sole aim is to control and intimidate humankind with an unrealistic set of laws and rules which I call “sin laws”. Religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.) has no value in my life because Satan is the god of religion. I do believe that the one true and living God is revealed through my relationship with His son, Jesus Christ. I love how the Message translation of 2 Peter 1:3-4 describes life with Jesus:
3-4 Everything that goes into a life of pleasing God has been miraculously given to us by getting to know, personally and intimately, the One who invited us to God. The best invitation we ever received! We were also given absolutely terrific promises to pass on to you—your tickets to participation in the life of God after you turned your back on a world corrupted by lust.
Amen!
Carolyn, I agree. One of the really moving things about "Crazy for God" is where he talks about how much better his parents were than the Religious Right movement they helped to create. I think some of this is esthetic. They loved art, and art forces us to engage with the real world in some ways. Francis Schaeffer's writings are so much more passionate than the writings of another "presuppositionalist," Cornelius Van Til. Van Til was a real "cold fish," as someone said once. He finds it pretty easy to dismiss the modern world. Schaeffer was passionately engaged with it.
Please explain a "relationship with His son, Jesus Christ." This was taught to me as the *only* way to "be saved," i.e., to escape the eternal torment of hell. I agree heartily with the teachings attributed to Jesus and fully understand that following them would create the lost Eden, but I don't agree at all that a "loving" god would set up a torment like hell for his "children." I don't believe a loving god would have "his son" tortured and killed in order that he could stand the sight of the beings he called his "children."
I think you're right that a LOVING god would have gifted his children with the beauty of art and music and with the talents to produce such arts. But there is a serious disconnect between torture to "save" and love and beauty.
If I have any relationship with Jesus, it's very simple: The teachings attributed to him actually *could* save the world---but I cannot accept the terror of the thing called "God" in the juidaic religions who is a being of cruelty and pain who has dictated slavery and hatred of women and cruelty to children according to the book worshiped by most of his followers.
I had this stuff shoved down my throat from birth and it's taken years and lots of therapy money to shed the horror of it, and the "christians" of the world do absolutely NOTHING to encourage me to look any further into it.
Dear Olive,
I truly understand your struggle. I also find it hard to reconcile the anger and cruelty attributed to the God of the Hebrew Bible with the lovingkindness, grace, and mercy of Jesus in the New Testament. I do not understand why so many Christians believe that threatening others that they are doomed for hell if they do not believe in God would convince anyone that God loves them. That is not a message of love! Too many have been traumatized by what they heard preached/taught in church. Authentic Christian Life Ministry was established to help people like you and others overcome church trauma. I invite you to visit our website (https://authentic-christianity.life/) to learn how to develop your relationship with Jesus and engage in discussions that will affirm your faith.
Peace and blessings, Carolyn
Frank, I’ve written before with positive response to your various commentaries and analyses. You share some very good insights. However, your two latest “It Has to Be Said” recordings suggest you’re going on a rampage of hatred and anger against anything and anyone who supports faith in God or Christ or the Bible. I’m also a refugee from the American Christian Right subculture, in which I spent decades of my life. I admit that I hate what I’ve discovered about this corrupted, increasingly far-right, politicized, white Christian nationalist movement. Yet, I’ve not thrown out the baby with the bath water by rejecting God, Christ, or anything connected to the Bible as you appear to have done. And you seem to have gone further by condemning Christian belief altogether and lumping into one contemptible pile any faith in God or anyone who may believe in Christ or the Bible.
With all due respect, your claims that completely discount Christ and the Biblical accounts as myths are flawed. I seek truth like you. I believe in good science like you. And there’s much evidence for the historical, textual, archaeological, and other objective evidence for Christ.
As for climate change, I agree that many of the Christian Right deny it. But I know those who don’t, and I’m one of them who agrees strongly with climate science. A senior climate scientist for the Nature Conservancy is a Christian whose husband is an evangelical pastor. She points out that the denial of human-caused climate change is notable not among Christians outside the U.S. but among conservative Christians in the U.S., and it’s driven largely by politics.
Many of the greatest discoveries in science over the centuries came from the work of Bible-believing Christian scientists.
I’m sorry for the extremism and anti-science nature of your youth and father. You’re right to speak against it. I speak out against the American Christian Right to which I once belonged. But your vitriol and claims seem to have become like a religion to you, an atheistic religion full of hatred and bitterness.
Why did you recently interview a Christian whose book and writings you praised (even if you don’t agree with his beliefs) if you have such contempt for Christian beliefs of any kind?
Your latest “It Has to Be Said” messages (posted this last week of July 2023) are filled with extreme intolerance and a dogmatic hatred that is destructive like the far-right, fundamentalist Christians you condemn.
I appreciate much of what you have shared in past weeks but I believe you are really undercutting the credibility and helpfulness of your analysis with such atheistic hatred.
The eye of the beholder. I don't see any hatred whatsoever in this content---we absolutely DO NOT need the prophets to show us the deadly folly that their religions have instilled in the world. We see too easily exactly what that has wrought---DEATH. If you need Jesus, there's nothing in Frank Shaeffer's words that tells you not to satisfy that need. But to judge everyone who doesn't have your point of view as athestic haters is hardly a quality of Jesus'.
Thank you, Olive! I'm sure many will find Frank's...frankness...to be offensive. However, that being said, the deepest, most damaging wounds hurt the most, and as with wounds, the antiseptic cleanser that, without which there could be no healing, when applied caringly, cannot be diluted at all! The world needs Frank's observations like never before. Many, if not most, may not be willing to listen, but those who ARE listening...those who both hear and see...will find a new connection, a vital life-line that lets them know that they are not alone, nor are they the only ones who are listening! We are on the cuff of a new awakening...an awakening for the benefit of humanity, in all its diverseness and uniqueness! Anyway, just thankful that I'm not alone!
After listening to this podcast, I decided to reread Frank's father's book "Pollution and the Death of Man: the Christian View of Ecology"(1970). It's quite an interesting book. I think Frank said that his father "opposed science" in the podcast. That doesn't seem true. In fact, I would say it's hard to know what "opposing science" would even mean. Science has such high prestige in the present world that it would be almost impossible to oppose it. The proponents of almost all viewpoints try to lay claim to the achievements of science in some way. Every religion, for example, claims to be the "only scientific religion" at some point.
In a way, this podcast does the same thing Frank's father did, but from the opposite direction. Frank's father said the only way to a good environmentalism is through Christian "presuppositions." Frank is saying the only way is through "scientific" presuppositions. But is science really a teaching that we have to decide to accept or reject? I don't think so. I think it's the endeavor of those who love to investigate things. They don't all agree.
Addition: I think maybe I need to flesh out a little more what I'm saying. In his book, Frank's father said that Christians have dominion over nature but had failed to use it properly. We are supposed to use it in a compassionate and ethical way. And I'm assuming that's what he wanted the Religious Right to push for. I'm assuming that in another issue, he would've said that women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions, but the children they give birth to should be guaranteed the support they need. So why didn't this happen? I think because the Religious Right made an alliance with the Republican Party. At that point, the party's priorities became its priorities, too. But I believe there is another side to this. Another problem is that the Christian America that his father envisioned was not to be. The American people didn't embrace it. Could they have done so? I doubt it, because its intellectual foundations were not very strong. For example, it has to deal with science in an authoritarian way. It says "science will eventually agree with the teachings of our scriptures." But that's not the way science functions. It isn't set up to arrive at particular conclusions about things.
I remember in one of Francis Schaeffer's books he mentioned that some scholar believed the world was only 6,000 years old. That surprised me a little, because generally he seemed pretty deferential to the ideas of scientists. But his priority was that they eventually have to agree with the Bible.
Because Americans didn't adopt the evangelical agenda, eventually some people started to think, "we have to force Americans to accept our priorities." This is something that I think Schaeffer himself would've found strange and disturbing. He thought the goodness of Christianity should be able to speak for itself. For example, there was his short book called "The Mark of The Christian." The world will want to adopt Christianity because Christians are so loving.
With all due respect, your claims that completely discount Christ and the Biblical accounts as myths are flawed. I seek truth like you. I believe in good science like you. And there’s much evidence for the historical, textual, archaeological, and other objective evidence for Christ.
Please cite your sources for this statement.
Thank you.
Hi, SPW. Thanks for asking. There are many sources for the truth to which I’m referring. They comprise an extensive field of research, study, and analysis known as Christian apologetics. You can Google for a variety of resources under “Christian apologetics.” I am listing below a small number of those resources, both people and books. The book titles are in quotes. These authors have written many more books than I’ve listed.
This group of 11 people delve into science and the Bible, textual evidence, archaeological evidence, legal analysis, investigative journalism, historical and literary resources, linguistics, and more. This small number of people include some former atheists or skeptics, including people who intended to disprove the Bible and Christianity (for example the Resurrection of Christ), but they were converted to Christ by the weight of objective evidence they discovered.
These authors represent a range of highly educated people, some of whom have advanced degrees from very highly respected universities, like Oxford, Cambridge, Princeton, and others. Indeed, some have been professors at these institutions.
There are many more resources and authors that could be cited. Some of those additional sources can be found in the writings of this list of people. My small list below includes some of those whose writings I’ve read or whom I’ve read about over the years:
- [ ] Josh McDowell, “More than a Carpenter,” former skeptic who set out to disprove Christianity, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” books
- [ ] Gregory Boyd, former atheist; a theologian, professor, pastor, and prolific writer, “Letters from a Skeptic”
- [ ] F.F. Bruce, Scottish biblical scholar and professor, “The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?”
- [ ] Robert Dick Wilson, American linguist and Old Testament scholar
- [ ] Frank Morison, lawyer, “Who Moved the Stone?”
- [ ] Lee Stroebel, atheist turned Christian, formerly an award-winning investigative journalist and legal editor of the Chicago Tribune; writer
- [ ] C. S. Lewis, British scholar, writer, and professor; former atheist
- [ ] Malcolm Muggeridge, British intellectual and writer
- [ ] Scientists, eg A. E. Wildersmith, Henry Morris (eg, “Men of Science, Men of God”), Hugh Ross (Canadian astrophysicist who started the non-profit organization called “Reasons to Believe”)
Thanks. I’ll check a few out.
As a former evangelical charismatic Christian, and currently as a very happy gay man with a partner of over 23 years, I never thought that I would find someone, a leader, whom I had highly respected from my church past. Your thoughts and opinions are so aligned with what I see happening in the world that I am absolutely amazed! Thank you for being Frank!